What are the best items for magicians?

Kakost

Active Member
Joined
06/12/2022
Messages
401
If we're talking about low levels, then INT and Staff Mastery probably aren't high enough to weld any wizard to the staves. This could be a great option:
Yes, early game wands are actually better damage than staves are.

Assuming the same amount of skill points you'd spend on Staff Mastery is what you would spend on Wand Mastery, than at max lvl (4), you get +8 damage from wands, plus whatever AGI you have (and AWA/2)

Now, with Staff Mastery max (4), you get INT x2 damage, which means that you'll only ever get the same bonus from up to INT 4+, plus whatever AGI you have.

What's more, if you're actively building a Wand mage, you'll obviously place more into AGI, while you instead place more into INT while building a Staff mage.

For instance, if you're playing Wand mage with AGI 5, INT 3 and AWA 2 with Wand Mastery 4, your total bonus is 5 (agi) + 1 (awa/2) + 8 (WM 4) = +14 damage.
(Int 3 is for extra mana, xp, perception and some skill checks)

Now, reversing Int and Agi for a Staff mage: AGI 3, INT 5, AWA 2, Staff Mastery 4
That gives: 3 (agi) + 10 (int x2) + 1 (awa/2) = the same +14 extra damage.

That's the math I did on my first play. Staff will only start to outdamage Wand after INT 5+. At Int 5, despite having the same bonus, it's important to remember that Staves have higher unmodified damage than Wands, so this is the mark where they shift, and the edge only gets bigger from that point on.

There are several other benefits to trade high INT for high AGI, besides just having bigger damage output above Int 5. Yes, not having the higher AGI means a little bit less defence, but for mage that's not really that important (I hope you'll learn how to bravely hide yourself behind your companions). And the Disarm Traps is absolutely dispensable for mages with at least Mage Armor 1 (and every single mage ever will have more than that).


Higher INT however will have SEVERAL benefits, and for Mages those benefits are even more than to other classes.

First, higher XP: that's a tiny bonus, and it's both negletable and not essential in any build, but it's there nonetheless.

Second: extra mana. Yes yes, you dont exactly need an endless supply of mana, you can just use mana potions, however if a single golem drains your entire mana, or if 1 fireball and 1 zap leaves you drained, than you'll see the benefits of having that little extra juice. Or, in case you cant even summon your big and mean Iron Golem because it's more mana than your tiny pathetic amateurish mage pool.
And not having to drink a mana potion every 2 spells may be the difference between life and death, when you dont need to wait a few seconds to buy that life saving HP mana because you had to keep adding juice to your machine instead.
Again, not essential but super, super helpful

Third: Perception. This may seem highly secondary but trust me, even thou Int just gives +5% Perception every 2 lvls, because you'll push Int high, you'll actually notice a massive difference.
In my experience, this has been the best benefit of high Int. With my Mage I played with a meager 2 in AWA (+2 from the Amulet of Dark Whispers), but with my 8 INT, no doors are secret to me. And no traps catch me by surprise (not that I fear traps with Mage Armor, but it's nice to not waste mana re-summoning it by detecting and avoiding the traps).
This bonus alone saves you a lot of time and completely ditched my need for scrolls throughout the entire game (save for some very very few doors, like the SPOILER bellow the Cursed Abbey)

Forth: Disabling Traps. That bonus, just like for AGI, is totally dispensable and unnecessary.

Fifith: skill checks. That's a good bonus, but if memory serves, you only need INT 4 to fulfill all needs for skill checks throughout the entire game (or is it 5? Im not sure).
Playing as a Wand mage, you dont really have all too much incentive to push Int above 3, so there's also this benefit for Staff Mages.
And I believe that AGI also topples at 4 as far as skill checks go (I think there's just 1 case with Agi 6 but it's an absolutely non needed situation), and Agi 4 is also good for Staff Mages (besides, there are far more items that grant bonus Agi than bonus Int, including the +3 Agi gloves).

The Staff Mage is the best rounded character in the game, capable of achieving ALL skill checks in the game (except for 1 or 2 that calls for strenght who are absolutely dispensable).

Now, as to the idea of starting as Wand Mage and switching to Staff Mage after AGI 4+, the only problem with that is "char reset inflation" lets call it. Yes, it can be done, but just remember that if you want to re-reset your char in the future for whatever reason, it gets incresingly more expensive.

So I recommend starting as Staff Mage from the get go, despite some modicum amount of less min-max at the very early game, and the reason is that the early game with Mage is super super easy (I'd say that it's the easiest early game class there is, particularly if you build Elementalist Mage), thus that tiny amount of disadvantage at the very beginning is negletable, while your Mage will already being prepared properly for the Mid and Late game without needing the reset.
 

Nivarian99

Member
Joined
09/03/2023
Messages
59
So I recommend starting as Staff Mage from the get go, despite some modicum amount of less min-max at the very early game, and the reason is that the early game with Mage is super super easy (I'd say that it's the easiest early game class there is, particularly if you build Elementalist Mage), thus that tiny amount of disadvantage at the very beginning is negletable, while your Mage will already being prepared properly for the Mid and Late game without needing the reset.
Hold on, so you are saying staff + elementalist, rather than staff and summon? how does that work? I thought the staff -summon was the easy way out for a mage? i have always wanted to try the elemental spells, but couldnt get the hang of fireball, end up burning the mage, ice storm went every way except where i wanted it to go, and lightning only hits one person, unless they are obligingly queing up in front of the mage!

golems were so much easier, its like 3 people attacking at once. how did u play elemental mage?
 

Neponde

Active Member
Joined
27/03/2022
Messages
157
Elemental mage is a different, and for most people, a harder play-style. It requires more kiting skills. Summons are very straightforward.

In terms of "better" or "worse", its kind of a moot conversation. They are better in different situations, and worse in different situations. Good players can draw amazing things out of both builds. Everyone will find themselves preferring one or the other generally, for reasons of fun or effectiveness. (Effectiveness being that the individual can struggle to master a playstyle. For example, I find elemental mage and archer rogue relatively simple, but I struggle with a 2H warrior, even though many people consider 2H warrior "easy mode".
 

VDX_360

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
20/01/2017
Messages
6,199
Summoner + Staff: Stand behind your golem and fling stuff
Elemental Spell: Hit-and-run tactics.

Elemental Mages aka Spell Mages, focus on using the in-game spells as the primary attack. As the game's spells are elemental in nature, the player must be mindful of elemental resistances. Also, each spell has an unique attack pattern. Mastering how to use those attack patterns is crucial to getting the most out of your spells (or anything at all, really).

For example, Ice Storm is often a dud for new players. But when you learn to bounce it off the walls, it can do insane damage as it hits the same target dozens of time. In contrast, Lightning Bolt is a straight up line attack. It's really effective when you get enimies charging at you in a line (hallways, doors, etc). And fireball, well, it's a fireball. (Remember when Fireball could kill your own companion?)

Summoner + Spell Builds are less common as the kite tactic that works with spells can cause issues with your summons trying to keep up. Still a viable build that's beaten the game.

So it's not better or worse. Just very different playing styles.
 

Nivarian99

Member
Joined
09/03/2023
Messages
59
For example, Ice Storm is often a dud for new players. But when you learn to bounce it off the walls, it can do insane damage as it hits the same target dozens of time.

Lol, this I agree...'swat happens to my character in the Frozen Depths. The same storm hits so many times they end up dead! But when I try the same thing...na uh!
Summoner + Spell Builds are less common as the kite tactic that works with spells can cause issues with your summons trying to keep up. Still a viable build that's beaten the game.
Tempted to try this one...at least in the Ark, I found pure summoner wasnt enough...being slaughtered on the Reactor floor! gave up temporarily and instead my trying to raise an archer rogue. I somehow like ranged chars, rather than melee! hence my preferences for rogue and mage
Post automatically merged:    

For example, I find elemental mage and archer rogue relatively simple...

Oh I'd like to talk to you about archer rogue, cos as I said in my post above, I went into my first ever Ark foray with a tight Summoner mage and ended up being slaughtered by those floating balls in the Reactor! Then in the discord, I found out that having a lightning 3 may help in that Ark floor.

I have temporarily given up on the mage and am instead trying out an Archer Rogue, at level 11 now.

Have you posted your build/tactics on archer rogue anywhere? can you link to it? if not, maybe we could discuss that elsewhere.
 

Neponde

Active Member
Joined
27/03/2022
Messages
157
Its been a long time since i touched my rogue. I just opened him up, and looked at my layout. I did end up clearing all quests, but I didn't attempt undermother. I finished the game on him long before sleeper temple & new mega boss got added in to another area (vague for spoilers). I breezed through the new content relatively easily, though the trio of witches took a couple of tries. Defeated sewer and all relates bosses too. (Spoiler involving post-end game content) I got trounced by kalagru, though. Only attempted once, and with a few tweaks I'm sure it would work fine. I posted in the discord help section with your name, come find me and I'll try and help you out. There are better players than I on there too who may weigh in. (Look for Heolias / Jordy. Thats me.)
 

Nivarian99

Member
Joined
09/03/2023
Messages
59
I posted in the discord help section with your name, come find me and I'll try and help you out. There are better players than I on there too who may weigh in. (Look for Heolias / Jordy. Thats me.)

Thanks so much! i had a look at Discord, saw your pics and tips! very helpful in giving me ideas. only questions i had were about massive crits and trap, which i posted there.
 

Kakost

Active Member
Joined
06/12/2022
Messages
401
Tempted to try this one...at least in the Ark, I found pure summoner wasnt enough...being slaughtered on the Reactor floor! gave up temporarily and instead my trying to raise an archer rogue. I somehow like ranged chars, rather than melee! hence my preferences for rogue and mage
Yeah, just Summoner in the Ark is hard. Zap 3 is crucial there - I did the Ark as Elementalist, after all. 2 zaps is enough to deal with any steel spider. So, you just initiate with a zap, run and zap again.

Sometimes I traded Mana for HP, thus I would zap only once and finish with 2 hits from my staff. Sometimes I start with a basic staff attack, and if Im lucky the spider gets slow, upon which I can finish with hit and run with the staff alone or with 2 staff hits and a single zap before taking any hits. But sometimes I would bravely "tank" a hit or 2 without much problems.

I did however HAD to get the Imp lvl 1, amd reason being that the Imp is imune to shock, thus it is absolutely immortal against those damn Wizard robots (forgot the name, the machinegun robots that shots lasers non stop). One tiny lvl 1 imp however, and I can finish those cursed robots off with my staff alone.

Like VDX said, Elementalist is hit and run play, while Summoner is "keep beating until they die". Different playstyles, but the Elementalist is actually the closer there is to the Archer, although with differences still. With Archer you use traps, kick, evade and sprint for the "run" part, while with Elementalist you deal massive damage to dispatch foes quickly before they dispatch you, but it's the same principle
Post automatically merged:    

Elemental mage is a different, and for most people, a harder play-style. It requires more kiting skills. Summons are very straightforward.

In terms of "better" or "worse", its kind of a moot conversation. They are better in different situations, and worse in different situations. Good players can draw amazing things out of both builds. Everyone will find themselves preferring one or the other generally, for reasons of fun or effectiveness. (Effectiveness being that the individual can struggle to master a playstyle. For example, I find elemental mage and archer rogue relatively simple, but I struggle with a 2H warrior, even though many people consider 2H warrior "easy mode".
Yes. "Better" or worse for this game is absolutely relative (and this is way this game is so damn amazing) Good Meele Rogue players are total bosses. Which is better, 1H and Shield Warrior with Infantry Training, or 2H Warrior? Answer is: none, they are completely different playstyles. What's better, a Summoner or Elementalist? Neither, they are completely different. It's almost as playing a different class all together.

What's best, Arcane Knight, Meele Rogue, Warrior or one of the "baseline" Mages? And the answer is, none. This game is pure poetry.

What I meant is that, for the very early game, Elementalist is a total boss, since you can literally kill massive groups of enemies with a single spell, something no other class or build can ever do - but that's something that the Elementalist can only do very early on. From the Mid-Early to Mid Game, there's no one that is "Better" or "Worse", just the one that each individual player adapts better or worse at. Clerics are overall very good, and you really have to try hard to die while playing one, but I still find it a lot easier at the very early game (ftom lvls 1 to 5) to play Elementalist than Cleric or any other, precisely because all those bandits and goblins get vaporized by anyone single spell.

Heck, just Zap lvl 1 is enough to go by the Unkown Dungeon with a lvl 1 Mage and get Adaon early on before getting Griss (but I strongly recommend getting to lvl 2 before doing it)
 
Last edited:

VDX_360

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
20/01/2017
Messages
6,199
Fire Golem does surprising well in the ark. (not against radiation!)
While he doesn't do much damage, the fire explosions heal him. So it kind of makes him a very durable meat shield.
 

Nivarian99

Member
Joined
09/03/2023
Messages
59
Fire Golem does surprising well in the ark. (not against radiation!)
While he doesn't do much damage, the fire explosions heal him. So it kind of makes him a very durable meat shield.

I tried using a fire golem scroll, but they could hardly survive until even the fire explosion!
 

Top