The hard life of the archer

[0rion79]

Hi all, waiting for the next patch, I have decided to play a bit with the other classes.

My first game was with a 2-handed warrior, then I have tried a bit with a sword & shield one, a cleric and a rogue specialized in archery, all at casual level since I am constantly in short of time and I wouldn't have the patience nor the interest to play any of the harder levels.

So far, all classes are somehow balanced (with few notes still expressed in my previous post about special abilities), while the archer .... meh.

It is a constant reload and re-try, since a versatile character that exploit agility and is smart enough to pick up the bests option during conversations with NPCs lacks the stamina granted by other melee classes and dies so easily, despite any attempt to keep distance.

Traps are really useful to hamper incoming enemies and in most of the cases Grisenda does a decent job as a tank, blocking incoming enemies.

In many other cases:
- traps are triggered without blocking enemies (happens rarely but it does)
- Grisenda attacks other enemies
- enemy arrows pass through obstacles as hills but my archer cannot properly shoot through open doors
- when enemies are particularly distant but still at range, Grisenda keeps running here and there among my archer and the enemy, with a script that tells her to attack enemies at sight and to come back to the main character when she is too distant. As a result, she gets mauled especially by ranged enemies since she does not fight back and then it is my turn of my archer
- my archer is no t fast enough to keep distance with enemies: once engaged in melee, there are few helpful abilities but I am forced to pass to melee fight.
- in so many cases, the animation of the bow being used is so long that I cannot properly control distance and actions, and I grant a sort of fist strike to enemies
- there is no special ability that allows to use bows at close distance, bringing the chance to miss enemies to 0.
- in so many cases, my character gets stuck on bushes, rocks or door corners because commands are fine but not accurate enough to grant that kind of flawless maneuvering that instead enemies have by default
- elemental short bows deal such a small elemental damage that it is not a significant advantage against vulnerable enemies (eg. the ice short bow doesn't deal any extra damage when hitting fire drakes or fire demons).
- having a high armor class is not a real improvement due to the 20% to 100% range of protection that it offers without any shield.
- having a high basic intelligence and the XP from disabling traps really do not provide a significant boost to level up as initially expected.

Again I can confirm a terrible difficulty peak when I am among level 8-11 more or less, depending by the equipment and character build. After level 11 things begin slowly to improve, especially when I start to have a decent melee weapon as Sonnet and a decent bow as the one that deals +4 shock damage, but those weapons are quest rewards and so it is very difficult to get them.
And I am playing at casual level, can't image the most difficult ones.

In some cases, I just had to use Grisenda as meat cannot (she has more HP than my character eve being 3 levels lower or so) to distract enemies while I could get some quest item from dungeons and complete quests in short without fighting: that was the only way.

At least the jester bow is really nice, since in short it grants higher chances to stun enemies due a faster fire rate.

All this not to complain, but to provide a pure feedback with strengths and things that maybe can be improved.
For instance I am not telling to give the rogue more HP since it would spoil the fun.

Cheers

 

[OrderOfTheStick]

Good point with the low elemental damages. Thought about it too recently.

One soultion could be to boost the elemental damage and to lower the physical. But the enemies armor rating and the changed critical damage could make this attempt ineffective.

Maybe it's more practicable to lower the resistance of the enemies elemental weakness...

 

[DavidBVal]

Thanks for the useful info! Definitely archers need new skills.

 

[0rion79]

Hola David!

I really do not think so.
The abilities are really cool and I like them almost as they are (please check the dedicated thread), it is more a matter of optimizing what the game currently offers, both in terms of AI and character build.

Here some advice:

1 - include books that provide extra skill points (good for all classes)
2 - add a script for quick draw that allows characters to switch to melee weapon automatically when engaged in a melee fight
3 - improve the scripts that manage the followers and the main character. For instance, too many times my archer aims at the most distant enemy rather than the closest (and then most dangerous). I told already what happens with Grisenda in some cases.
4 - manage the animation of shooting arrows, because it really takes a long time and makes the archer really vulnerable when enemies approach.
5 - you may turn Rapid Fire in a passive skill that increases the speed by 2 points each. Even using skills at the right time can be a vital choice! In many cases, the loss of time caused by small buttons may cause a death, so I really prefer static skills to active ones.

The main problem that I see is that it is very difficult to rely entirely on arrows to kill enemies especially in very narrow places where that moron of Grisenda remains stuck behind my archer, pretending to chase enemies while she just doesn't move! I have to move my archer first, as in a chess game, but those few seconds may make the difference among life and death.

Don't take me wrong as a power player, but I really think that some extra skill point from books, intelligence (maybe 1 extra skill every 3 points in intelligence), every 5 levels (5, 10, 15...) and/or a mix of these would be really nice to exploit the variety of skills in the game.

In this specific case, with the Archer I feel that I need many more skill points to have even some decent melee skill too, since specializing in ranged weapons really doesn't pay the investment because is not a stand-alone choice: it results as an excellent complementary feat, that yet requires a high investment and extra space in the backpack, that is still very limited. As a stand-alone development pattern, it would require followers to be good tanks but they will never be if they remain several levels back.

With any other character I steel feel that I am developing skills at a too slow pace that does not match the difficulty and challenges of monsters.

Sorry if I have been long!

 

[0rion79]

Hi David, just wished to provide you some extra feedback: the two main reasons that make playing with the archer so hard - controls aside - is that followers are really dumb, and that the main character is really fragile.

Let me specify further.

As I have told you, I am using Grisenda as a main tank: even if she is very well equipped, she always stays behind because followers are weaker. Having her as a tank is not the same thing as having a strong main character with Adaon as a backup archer. Sometimes it is hard to have the right melee 1-hand weapon for Grisenda too, to face certain monsters.

Secondly, there is a problem of the armor class: whenever monsters "touch" me, my character gets mauled even if now he is at level 15 and has 3 points in constitution (5 in agility, 3 in intelligence, awareness and charisma - I love to play smart characters and being a rogue I want him to be able to disarm traps).

Rarely I can count on a full armor class, the lack of a shield to increase the minimum Armor value from 20 to 40% is really an issue (that's why I don't go 2-weapons fighting) and no matter what I try to reinforce my rogue: so many times Grisenda fails to intercept attackers and, when enemies engage my rogue in a melee fight, he is just hopeless regardless of the equipment that I give him.

Also, some feats that are supposed to combine together simply don't work: for instance, the kick feat is supposed to help the archer to keep enemies at bay, pushing them back to give him extra time to kill them with the bow. So many times I just kick the air because monsters (especially animals as normal and corrupted sabertooth cats) have a longer reach than the archer, not to mention that they are really faster and physically simply more powerful, with a ridiculously low earning in XP.

I think that, if you could simply make feats more accessible, elemental bows slightly more effective by changing game rules (es. rounding up extra elemental damage so that minimum must be 1, always, and not 0), improve the followers' behaviour, then it should be ok.

 

[DavidBVal]

Hello, currently I'm deep into other stuff (bugfixes, development for localization, etc) but I'll come back to this and take everything into account.

 

[0rion79]

Never meant to be pushy: was just adding some more detail after experiencing with the game some more, so everything is here for when you will have time to work on this too.

 

[Kuratha]

Here some advice:

1 - include books that provide extra skill points (good for all classes)
2 - add a script for quick draw that allows characters to switch to melee weapon automatically when engaged in a melee fight
3 - improve the scripts that manage the followers and the main character. For instance, too many times my archer aims at the most distant enemy rather than the closest (and then most dangerous). I told already what happens with Grisenda in some cases.
4 - manage the animation of shooting arrows, because it really takes a long time and makes the archer really vulnerable when enemies approach.
5 - you may turn Rapid Fire in a passive skill that increases the speed by 2 points each. Even using skills at the right time can be a vital choice! In many cases, the loss of time caused by small buttons may cause a death, so I really prefer static skills to active ones.

(Underlined the summary bits)
I agree with a lot of what you've said in both this post and your last one with all the many difficulties of using ranged weapons. I was planning on making a post myself but decided to add one suggestion, a skill, to what you've said.


"Kick" (the skill) -> "Hamstring Kick"
ex. Damage = (Some balanced mathematical formula)
Has a 30%/65%/95% chance to stun.
Enemy is slowed for .5s/1s/1.5 seconds.
Cooldown is 12/9/6
You pass by the enemy slicing their tendon in the process.

As a ranged player you want as many 1v1 battles as possible. This serves as:
1v1- a chance for kick to the enemy past you (giving you a flanking bonus shot). If not, you've at least kicked him away giving you a chance retreat and finish them off.
1.v. more than 1. You have a chance to stun, knockback, and slow an enemy that charges at you. Giving you a better chance to not get swarmed.

In actual combat as an archer if an enemy swordsman gets close you are usually out skilled. However archers generally have backup daggers (those movies when they use arrows and they don't break :lol: ). Simply drop your bow, drawing a dagger as you take a shot (a wrestling shot- basically a low tackle), and hamstringing the guy as you pass next to him (as ankles aren't usually covered well). You then proceed to kick him him to the ground where you can: finish him off with your daggers, retrieve your bow and finish him off, or grab your bow and 'tactically' retreat.