Player/monster parity

[lectricpharaoh]

Are there any plans to introduce a level of parity between monsters and players? I've noticed so many things that make this game incredibly difficult, and many of them are simply because player characters and monsters are not treated the same. In fact, this makes the game hands-down one of the hardest I have ever played, and I'm on the easiest setting.

Monsters regenerate health. Sometimes, this is enough to offset the damage I can do to them. Players do not regenerate health (except for a very small amount on the casual setting, limited to the lesser of 50 health or 50% max health, whichever is lower), and everything that recovers health in any way uses up your finite resources. This doesn't seem limited to specific creature types, either- even bandits, presumably with human physiology and lacking magical regeneration, demonstrate this quality. Result: I invariably die.

Monsters come in huge packs. Even when you have multiple companions accessible, you may only use one at a time. This means that you're a duo fighting huge mobs, even when you should be able to lead a group in. There seems to be no other reason than to artificially give an advantage to the monsters. It's made worse by the fact that many times, it's next to impossible to avoid 'waking up' an entire pack. Result: I invariably die.

Monsters globally level up, without seeming to need to do anything to accomplish this. I spend hours and hours grinding, only to notice that those level 2 wolves have been buffed to level 6 or so dire wolves. Given the number of kills I must amass to gain levels, this would seem to indicate that victim adventurers in the land must outnumber the monsters by several orders of magnitude- or are they just leveling up for free, as I suspect? It makes it incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to level up enough to have a chance when the monsters automatically level up to keep pace. Result: I invariably die.

Monsters respawn at an incredible rate. The wiki says they respawn every 12 hours of game time, or nine minutes of real time, but I've noticed in some cases, they respawn far faster, such as ~30 seconds of real time. If I die, will I respawn in a matter of seconds or minutes at full health? Didn't think so. Result: I invariably die.

Experience awarded for kills is sometimes arbitrarily reduced. This seems to happen most with the accelerated spawns described above. I've noticed this happening with wraiths in the Deadwood, and bloodcrawlers in the Jabal Grotto. It's certainly not scaling the experience based on character level like some games do (ie, "this monster isn't challenging to a character of your level, so you get less or no experience"), since it happens even when I'm not leveling up. In fact, it seems a tactic designed to inhibit leveling up- well, either that or a bug. Result: I invariably die.

Monsters never miss, unless you happen to exit the tile where an attack lands or passes through. If engaged at close quarters when using a bow, I frequently receive a message that I fumble and miss. I have never yet seen this message about a ranged attacking monster fumbling and missing. Result: I invariably die.

Monsters can only be attacked on their terms. For example, take the common bandit/outlaw group that demands a payment on the road. I've tried shooting them before talking, but the arrows pass right through. I've tried using stealth/invisibility to sneak past, but they somehow nullify that ability. Only when they are ready and willing to fight do they become viable targets. Can I invoke this "can't be targeted at this time" effect for my character? Didn't think so.

Monsters have increased projectile range. If you can hit a monster with a ranged attack, it can hit you. The reverse is not necessarily true. Result: I invariably die.

I know it sounds like a rant, but I'm finding what is otherwise a nice, if as-yet unpolished, game is made incredibly frustrating and hard in all the wrong ways by what feels like brazen cheating on the part of the game. It's kind of like playing chess, and having your opponent declare that your pieces are bound by the usual rules, while his pieces all move like queens. Losing to this kind of a player repeatedly would wear thin quite quickly.

It's one thing to make the game challenging, but quite another to arbitrarily and unfairly apply different rules to the computer-controlled characters simply to give them an overwhelming advantage. Is any sort of parity planned for this game in the future, or will it be more of the same exercise in frustration?

 

[feldon]

So couple of things:
1. Monsters will not constantly level up. Mob types will grow to a point. When you start out, monsters will be around lvl2-3, but will cap out around lvl 6. This was designed that way so you wouldn't be rewarded for just hanging around the first few zones leveling up until you are strong enough to roll everything on your way to New Garand. You will actually find some of the early parts of the main questline easier to accomplish at a lower level..

2. If monsters respawn while you are in area regardless of the 9 mins game time, it means the designer wanted them to and its for a reason (one that can usually be found or understood if you study surroundings [usually tied to a boss or event])

3. These quick respawing enemies are nerfed in XP gains so you can't just sit and farm them.

4. If you are dying a lot, that's the game's way of saying you are trying to do something you are meant to yet, or you are not using strategy well. This game is not designed to let you ever become a 'superhuman' capable of destroying everything in your path w little to no resistance. Even at high levels, there are several scenarios I still have to remember to think about what I am doing to ensure I don't die. And I still die a lot.

5. You can pull enemies away from groups to avoid being ganged up on. Again, this goes to your style of play versus a flaw in the game.

6. Your not being able to shoot at Bandits in the road is because they are part of a set Random Encounter, which does offer you a way to avoid combat all together if you don't feel like fighting. Any other monsters can be drawn out or kited around as much as you want (have had to high tail it out of a whole area with 5-6 goons on my tail when something when south with my strategy)

7. Game has been watered down a fair bit by now if you are playing on Casual, so I'm not sure David is willing to sacrifice any more of his initial vision (game was Dark Souls level challenging in the beginning)

Let me know if there was an aspect I didn't cover or some mechanic you are still curious about.

 

[Mr.Suspense]

4. If you are dying a lot, that's the game's way of saying you are trying to do something you are meant to yet, or you are not using strategy well.

This is one of the core aspect of this game and it has been said repeatedly on multiple threads that you are not supposed to enter a dungeon and clear all in one shot. It needs skills, tactics and strategy to play.

This again rings the same old bell, the need for proper tutorial/guide at the game start. This will help to increase the retention rate of early level players, decreasing their frustration and eventually decreasing the major cause of negative rating (although the revised casual mode is supposed to tackle it).

IMO, David should consider this after the next/current content update or atleast before the public launch on iOS.

 

[ClockworkGhost]

The sheer fact that we have players with characters at the level cap, players with multiple characters of each build and class clocking 20th level, players running characters in Iron Man mode all suggests that the game is possible to play and to flourish in. I personally enjoy the fact it's dead hard - I get bored easily when I can just walk up to any monster and kill it in a full frontal assault, I like how you have to really think about skill usage and health.

No game will ever appeal to everyone - read a bunch of reviews in the app store and you'll see people ladling praise over the same game someone completely trashes, and often over the same reasons - difficulty, graphics, longevity, etc. I would be disappointed if the difficulty of the game was nerfed to draw in more players. I do agree that a longer tutorial may help, but please make it optional - I'd hate to have to go through a half hour tutorial for every character I make

 

[DavidBVal]

Regarding the original post: monsters have advantages, so make sure you use your own advantages to defeat them. You are a human, so you can outthink them. If there's many of them, be patient and wait for them to split, or if not possibble, find a narrow corridor or a doorway. Their usage of skills is very limited compared to yours, so a warrior doing charge+whirlwind will nearly defeat an elite orc before the fight starts. If you just jump into a crowd of orcs and hold attack, yeah, they'll beat you to a pulp, and that's intended.