Off Hand Weapons

Invector

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I have a question maybe one of you EK gurus can answer for me. It's about off hand weapons effect. I was playing around with a melee rogue armed with the Flaming War Hammer as well as a Flaming Dirk while I wandered around the Trollfens. At one point I left and re-armed with two non-fire weapons, and then awhile later went back. I re-armed with the War Hammer but forgot to exchange the off hand non-fire weapon (dirk of betrayal) with the flaming dirk. By the time I noticed it I had already killed a dozen trolls without having any regenerate. I wondered if that was just luck or if the off hand weapon doesn't ever deliver a killing blow. So I continued clearing the Trollfens until I had killed 100 trolls. None of them regenerated. Apparently the off hand weapon just adds to the main weapon's damage rather than dealing damage separately. Or does this only work with a non-elemental weapon? Would an off hand weapon, such as a cursed fang, dealing only death damage deliver a killing blow and thus trigger regeneration, or would it merely add to the main weapon's damage somehow? Any ideas?
 

Invector

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When you say "it" what are you referring to, the primary weapon or the off hand? Are you saying that a pure physical damage weapon like a dirk will just add to the primary weapon's damage and never execute a killing blow itself?
And what about a pure elemental (other than fire) off hand weapon. Can it actually kill a troll with it's own strike (which would trigger regeneration I assume) or does the game somehow convert its elemental damage to physical and then add it to the main weapon? I don't currently have an off hand elemental weapon or I would try it out and look at the log to see what effect if any it has.
 

VDX_360

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The game calculates an attack as a single action, with the damage calculated from each source. So long as an attack has a fire damage source, than a troll will stay dead. The fire damage doesn't need to be the damage the takes the troll to zero damage.

For your question about damage increases, both the in-game description and the Wiki are clear. Off-hand weapons enhance your attack, they do not give you a second attack. Thus, pure physical off-hand like the dirk will increase your damage range of your attack, specifically the Blue Steel Dirk adds 4 damage to each attack. You should be able to see that's the case in the character sheet window.

Giving off-hand users a second attack would break the game. Flurry would be a nightmare. Note, the game doesn't have an Accuracy, or Hit Rate mechanic, so there's no easy way to try to balance double attacks with a higher miss rate or similar mechanic seen in other games.

The advantage of off-hand weapons is that they offer some limited flexibility to Warriors and Rogues.

1-H and Light Warriors can swap between a shield and an off-wand weapon to focus on damage, say when flanking a creature (and thus no need for defense), when wanting that extra damage (high defense monsters), or when wanting the speacil effect of the off-hand weapon. Fire off-hand for trolls, Lightening Dirk for the stun effect. Warriors wanting to focus on damage builds are otherwise better served by going 2-H.

Rogues can do the same, but have a wider range of off-hand options, and are better suited given the Agility build nature of the class. Stab and Flurry skills are both well served by off-hand weapons as the damage multiples nicely.

Off-hand weapons don't see the same wide appeal in this game as in other games, but Rogues and Warriors are served by keeping them in mind.
 

Invector

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So if I'm understanding you correctly, an off hand elemental weapon will deal it's inherent damage (death for instance) to the troll, but will never be the cause of death if the primary weapon has a fire attribute?
 

Atomos

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Offhand weapons simply enhance your attacks. If you have fire damage attribute on any weapon or skill you are using, you'll be able to kill any troll. If you don't deal fire damage, you won't kill a troll. It doesn't get any simpler
 

VDX_360

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@Invector , Huh? For clarity, are you using a translation service for this forum? I just want to rule out translation errors in this discussion.

The game calculates an attack as a single action, with each source of damage getting it's own line in the combat log. Monster death occurs on whichever damage source takes it to zero health. So long as there's a fire damage in the attack, a troll won't regenerate, even if the fire damage wasn't the part that took it down to zero.

Example:

Let's say you're a Warrior that has a base damage of 2 (from traits, levels etc), that's using an Iron Longsword (Dmg 4 to 8).
The damage output per attack is 6 to 10. (Low 2+4, High 2+8).

Pretty straightforward right?

Now, you equip a Flaming Hatchet, which adds +2 Fire Damage as an off-hand weapon.
The damage output per attack is now 6 to 10, +2 Fire Damage. (As it would appear in your character sheet).
Low Damage: 2+4, + 2 Fire, for a total of 8 total damage
High Damage: 2+8, + 2 Fire, for a total of 12 total damage.

When you attack a troll, your going to get something like this:

You hit Troll, 6 -5 = 1
You Hit Troll, 2-0 = 2 (fire)

Line 1 is the physical damage. Your attack, randomly generated in the damage range. Minus the random armor value of the troll.

Line 2 is the elemental damage. In the game elements have colored font in the combat log. Red font for fire.

It does NOT matter if the 1 physical damage, or the 2 fire damage takes the troll to zero HP. Both will result in the troll not regenerating as the game checks to see if there was fire damage in the attack.

For clarity, that means if the troll was down to 1 hp, than the physical part would kill it. If the troll was down to 2, or 3 hp, than the fire damage would kill it.

If the troll has more than 3 hp, than it lives for the next round.

It also doesn't matter if there's another elemental damage at play, so long as there's one source of fire damage.

Let's look at a real example:

Attacking with a Nanocarbon Sword with Might Activated. The sword does 8 shock damage, Might does 4 fire damage.

In the following combat log entry, the troll gets the first hit in the round , but I get two hits as my weapon is slightly faster and with a slightly faster weapon you will sometimes get in an extra attack or two per round. Note, the game doesn't use formal rounds, but for organization of a combat log, the term is useful.

Ripped right from a combat log.

Troll hits you, 19-16=3
You hit Troll, 38-5=33
You hit Troll, 8-4=4 (shock)
You hit Troll, 4+1=5 (fire)
You hit Troll, 39-8=31
You hit Troll 8-4=4 (shock). Troll was killed.
Character Name: +99 XP. Companion: +61 XP.

Note: The shock damage in the second attack was what killed the troll. Because the attack had a fire aspect, the troll will stay dead.

Again, the fire damage COULD land the killing blow but it's just a matter of how it works out. Since fire damage tends to be the smallest amount of damage, sheer randomness indicates it will do the actual killing damage the least often (unless your a mage using a fire staff) but it doesn't matter.
 

VDX_360

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Wait, let's try a short and concise answer to your death question:

Yes, you can kill trolls with a Fire Weapon paired with a Death Off-hand.

Any part of the attack, the physical, the fire, or the death damage can take the troll to zero hp. That's just the luck of the math to which aspect takes it to zero. Because the attack had fire damage, the troll will stay dead.

The term "final blow" is sometimes used, and that includes the physical attack and all the associated sources of extra damage.

You can look at your own combat log to verify the points above.
 

VDX_360

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Also for clarity:

Using a non-fire weapon with a non-fire off-hand SHOULD NOT result in a troll death. The troll should fall to the ground and start regenerating. After a while, it pops back up with full health. You do not get XP.

Companions will often keep attacking a fallen troll that's regenerating.

And that leads to the next tid-bit to this puzzle.

If you have a Companion, the Companion's attack has the same rules. Fire will kill troll, no fire will not kill troll.
 

Lamar

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Interesting. How does that work with rogue's traps and kick? Wonder if as long as I'm w to add a aielding a fire weapon or offhand it counts as fire. Had not even considered that until this post. Maybe I should go test that.

If killed by a trap the troll regenerates...

Same for the kick.

That's going to make things fun.
 
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