Flanking and sneak attack with elemental

[Billhuggins]

So, in doing testing, elemental damage does NOT get boosted by flanking or sneak attack.

This seems like it can have dramatic repercussions, depending on how serious you are about flanking and sneak attack.

I'm level 9 rogue, with Gris. Gris kicks and whirls enough that flanking is pretty seriously hindered. I'll need to Respec her eventually.

If I was flanking solidly, my DPs would go up significantly if my offhand was damage not elemental (I'm using the electric stun dork), and if I focused on weapons with more damage and cared less about elemental.

If monsters have high armor, or if they have a shield ability, elemental may be better. Maybe. I suspect , if you're flanking, more pure damage is probably still better.

Similarly, light weapons seem to not be as good as hand weapons, per swing.
A light weapon will do damage faster...but for the same number of swings they do less. A light weapon will get the 5th swing before a hand weapon gets a 5th swing. But when the hand weapon does it's 5th swing, it does more damage.
If the fight goes on long enough, you will actually hit MORE swings with a light weapon. When that happens it catches up, or passes, the hand weapon. But the hand weapon will start doing more damage until the light weapon gets another bonus swing in.

If you are doing status effects, the extra speed probably helps. I can stun before he swings. Or if I get a bonus swing in, that's a bonus chance for my effect.

I was a fan of light weapons, but now I question it.

 

[VDX_360]

Yep. Flanking adds damage to physical attack, but not elemental. Just imagine how much damage Stab+Flank+Sneak Attack would do with elemental damage included, now toss in elemental weaknesses. And you can see why elemental damage is excluded. It would be just too powerful.

Conversely, enemies hit by multiple attacks through Cleave take full elemental damage (but reduced physical damage). Also, keep in mind an enemies resistance to elemental damage is calculated very differently than physical armor, which can give elemental damage a very nice edge in a fight (or negate it completely).

Gris knowing Kick or Whirlwind is known to cause problems with players trying to out-flank enemies, or use Duel. Kick and Whirlwind knock an enemy out of position that can destroy the flanking set-up, or stop the Duel count. Also, sometimes Gris likes to knock fire elementals into flames, which heals them. Hirge doens't known when to heal, Gris can't control her kicks. AI issues all around (the Companion AI has gotten a lot better, but still has room for tweaks).

Yes, in general, Light weapons have higher Damage Per Second (DPS), but Hand weapons will have a higher Damage Per Hit (DPH). This tends to mean against high defense enemies, hand weapons will do more damage than light weapons. Keep in mind that Traits (STR, AGL) factor into your damage calculation. Rogues have a decent amount of Light and 1-Hand weapons so you can always just use the quick slot to switch to the bigger damage dealer for stab, or as needed.

 

[Billhuggins]

Wait...
Flank and sneak attack stack? Is that true? I thought sneak attack replaced flank bonus, superceded it.

So, full sneak attack and flank bonus is like 125%?

I see that elemental weakness with sneak attack would be ... Problematic. I don't mind now, after much consideration. I really just wish that it was made clear that it doesn't affect elemental damage.

Light vs hand ... What I'm getting at is that I don't think light weapons are worth it, when comparing 2 similar weapons, and similar stats (say 2 str and 2 ago, or 3 and 3). You will get in damage less than a second earlier, and if that makes a difference then you have a reason. But as soon as the hand weapon gets its swing in, it's more damage. Over 8 or 9 hits, the light weapon spikes up, but at 14 or 15 hits the hand weapon is up again.

I thought the off hand weapon would offset this. It does bonus damage per hit, so if you're swinging faster, more hits, it's much more DPs. The problem is the light weapons are not fast enough.

DPs in game, the stat on the character sheet, is averaged over 20 hits if I understand it correctly. To get the real effect it should be closer to 100 hits so you get the few bonus swings in. The problem is very few fights (i.e. hits to kill 1 enemy) last that many swings. And the few that do, well, it could pay off there. But the difference is pretty small usually.

Now, a 8 or 9 speed rating vs 12 or 23 rating...that's a big difference. 10 vs 11? Or even 10 vs 12? Very questionable if it's better, even if DPs says it's better

Look at bluesteel short sword vs longsword. Longsword is better.

As to armor effect on light vs hand...
Yeah, that's a big concern of mine.
But, as far as I can tell, as long as you do more damage than they block, on average, it doesn't matter. But if you're doing minimum damage...hand weapon wins (if it does more damage than they block). Otherwise I don't think it matters

exception...status effects. If your doing status effects that can be different. .5 seconds quicker with a stun can matter. An extra swing, if it takes that many hits, gives another chance for status effect

 

[VDX_360]

In his 2016 post, David the Developer states Flanking "... gives a 25% bonus to damage. Stacks with everything. "

In the skill description, the Wiki states Sneak Attack does ".. deal +50% damage "

I'm not sure it stacks? But it seems it does? I'm trying to find the written-in-stone answer.

My punctuation choice to use plus marks in "Stab+Flank+Sneak Attack" was the same as using a slash mark --- referring to them as a group not stating they stack. I --think-- Stab and Sneak Attack stack (I'm pretty sure they do). It's the 25% baseline from flanking that's got me in a knot.

This is an area the Wiki could use some clarity.

 

[stonedwolf]

Light vs hand ... What I'm getting at is that I don't think light weapons are worth it, when comparing 2 similar weapons, and similar stats (say 2 str and 2 ago, or 3 and 3). You will get in damage less than a second earlier, and if that makes a difference then you have a reason. But as soon as the hand weapon gets its swing in, it's more damage. Over 8 or 9 hits, the light weapon spikes up, but at 14 or 15 hits the hand weapon is up again.

It's one thing to theorize, it's another to test; Light builds are beasts!

• Light builds are AGI heavy so the Light build usually has a better defense.
• Its better to dispatch a wounded enemy to "only" -5HP rather than take a hit and slug them down -10HP. (etc.)
• Interrupt a Hag's Heal Wounds. (etc.)
• Effects such as Stun, Slow, Critical trigger on a per-hit basis, more hits=more chance. (Again, getting them in first is good).
• Fixed damage such as Elemental, Duel, Heavy Hand works on a per-hit basis so again, Light > Hand > 2H
• And of course there is Flurry, the per-requisite priced so it's almost certainly a Light-focused build.

 

[VDX_360]

On the topic of Light vs. 1-hand weapons, keep in mind the Rogue's unique damage bonus is Damage Per Hit, so it adds more with faster weapons that hit more often.

It seems a majority of players like Agility build Rogues (thus Light weapons) but there's a decent amount of players that use 1-hand weapons, either as back-up weapons or a main go-to weapon.

Combat wise, I think Warriors get more out of being 2-H, Clerics get more out of being 1-H and Rogues get more out of being light weapons. It's very general personal opinion as there are plenty of impressive 1-H warrior builds, and 2-H clerics out there.

 

[Billhuggins]

I forgot about the bonus damage. However, it's still per hit, so it helps both...
DPs...it's not really DPs. It's damage per hit, averaged.
Again, you will get in your damage a bit faster, but when the slower weapon swings, you are doing less damage...
Unless the fight goes long enough that you get about 8 swings in. Then you're up ...till about 12 swings then your down again. Till 15 or 16 swings...

Interrupts...I don't understand those. That could be a big deal actually. How does that work?

Status effects...those make a difference.
Why do I care about slow status in melee (vs ranged)? Does slow effect melee attack speed and movement speed? I thought it was just movement speed. My opinion is if slow is only for movement speed, unless you want to run away it's not useful

I agree about the Roy..in the end it comes down to how it feels and how effective you are...
And fun. If it feels better...it's better.

The one thing that's a big deal though is armor. If you're not doing more damage than their armor, but a hand weaponn will, hand weapon will likely be better.

To my original point...
VDX - to be clear, I'm not talking about stab. I assume stab stacks normally.
I'm talking about sneak attack and flank. My assumption is sneak attack supercedes flank, negates it. Otherwise it really gets dramatic. Which would be ok in my opinion. When your companion dies and you can't flank...a very powerful skill becomes useless. Like poison...without having poison.

Also...direct damage vs elemental with flanking. It really makes direct damage shine, dramatically. If you can reliably flank. At that level of damage you should be surpassing armor so losing elemental damage bonus shouldn't matter

 

[VDX_360]

Interrupts...I don't understand those. That could be a big deal actually. How does that work?

Short version: spell casters that are hit while casting might fail to cast the spell because they were "interrupted" in the process.

The Witches are infamous for getting into an endless loop of them healing themselves repeatedly. It's one of things things that makes them a challenge for lower level characters.

 

[Billhuggins]

I like longer versions. Is there one?
I knew about interrupt because my 1st play through was with the wizard.
Mechanics? Any info?