End Game feels unbalanced (The Undergrove, Forbidden Pit, etc.)

bengalih

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So I want to start out saying I am a huge fan of this game, despite any issues I have with it.
I played it non-stop for like 3 weeks until I beat it a few days ago on Normal difficulty with my Cleric.
Honestly don't know why I only just found this game on the Play store.

I just wanted to provide feedback on my experiences. Obviously these are my opinions, and playstyles vary.

The short (TL : DR) of it is that I felt that the higher end-game quests seem unbalanced from the bulk of the game. I was able to get through everything (even most of the Ark) with just my own DPS and mana but then the game became impossible to output enough DPS before being obliterated by the enemy (and not even the main bosses). Without resorting to a lot of consumables (which I had no problem obtaining), I don't think I could finish the quests.

The Ark seems to setup a play style which requires utilizing much higher powered EMP weapons and the constant use of consumables (medipaks). This isn't really an issue when you figure out that this is required because enemies drop these consumables like candy and you can pretty much replenish them as quickly as you use them up.

I do find this a bit interesting of a design choice, but it can be considered a bit of a challenge to adapt your gameplay for an "end-game" quest. The above, along with the required skill of dodging exploding enemies means you may need to radically adjust your game style to put an end to the main quest line of the Ark.

What bothered me is much of the other end-game content around these mid-20 levels doesn't not seem to be able to be played (at least with certain builds) unless you continue to use the same type of playstyle. Specifically massive consumption of potions. Additionally, without having min/maxed your character or re-speccing them some of these quests/bosses may be impossible.

While I appreciate that some of these high level quests are put in as a "challenge", I feel that someone who invests the time playing a character through almost 100 hours of content (give or take 25) and is able to do so without much of a problem (i.e., faces the standard challenges of growing a character to take on level appropriate content, etc), should then not find their character in a position where they need to radically alter their play style or their character to finish the content.

I appreciate that an argument can be made that "hey, this is optional stuff...high level, only for those people that want to try and take it on." But while I can appreciate that argument, I don't agree with it. The game should scale equally throughout and we know level 24/25 is reasonably where anyone can expect to get to without excessive grinding - which should not be required to tackle some of these high level quests.

So while my overall experience with the game is an extremely positive one, I must say that my enjoyment was much less with this higher level quests that required me to depend so heavily on consumables, erratic companions, or other playstyle choices which were not required to handle the other level appropriate content while playing through the game. It really took me out of the aura the game created by turning what was an RPG into more of a technical slog or simply a button mashing, potion guzzling, experience.

Again - just one person's feedback, but I hope if new content is added (or a sequel using the same engine is made) that this be taken into consideration.
Still, will always recommend this game despite my not loving the top end content!

p.s. I had written a longer post that included a bit more about my playstyle and character for reference to my complaints, but decided to omit most of it above. I am however going to include it for reference below for a bit more color as to where I'm coming from.
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I'm not a huge gamer. I was a big RPG player in my youth, both PnP and PC games like all the D&D games from SSI (Pool of Radiance, Eye of the Beholder, etc..).
Other stuff in years that followed, but really not much other than a mess around with most things over the past 15+ years. So this throwback of a game was right up my alley.

I chose a Cleric (because Paladin wasn't available :), and) because I like the self-sufficiency of the class from other systems and assumed it would provide me a similar affordability in EK. I don't think I was incorrect on that point. With one extra recovery level I played the majority of the game without any outside healing. I'm a hoarder and a miser and so I don't pay for teleporting or buy potions. This allowed me to rack up XP while traversing the map and only use potions that I looted. I carried Potions of Light Healing probably until level 12-15 and then switched to moderate until near endgame. I rarely needed to use them except occasionally on some end bosses when I couldn't spam my heals quick enough. I rarely bought any gear as what was available for purchase usually seemed only nominally better than what I had at any given time and I kept saving my money in hopes that something better would come along. I think my biggest equipment purchase was 10K for the +1 STR belt and then my bank vaults and houses which I bought mostly when I was able.

Not only did I rarely use healing potions, I rarely used any consumables both because:

(A) I am a hoarder and

(B) I always look at them as a last resort when something is impossible and never wanted to resort to them unless I had no choice (and I usually did have a choice not to). Basically I always want to skirt the edge of my ability and felt that if I needed a consumable to tackle something then it was probably beyond what I could handle on my own.

So with the exception of maybe using something to free up an inventory space or the occasional invisibility potion (hello Temple of Blood), I mostly just used my own healing and buffs as a Cleric.

I do have to take an aside to state that I can barely conceive how much more difficult the other classes must be to play. Although all the other classes can probably put out some more DPS than the cleric, the rogue and wizard are surely squishier and none of the other classes can heal themselves. I'm sure that with any class other than Cleric that has to resort to potions for healing that perhaps the ideology of just chugging potions left and right was something that was a requirement from much earlier on in the game.

While I didn't do much farming below level 18 or so, I felt that I was doing mostly level appropriate quests. I do know that I went back to find some quests I didn't do after this which were considerably easier due to my advanced level. However I didn't shy away from difficult quests and while I don't see myself as an expert strategic player, I do have patience and would often die multiple times while trying to complete a dungeon that might have been normally considered too difficult for my level.

Additionally, since I did not know until level 18-20 that I would be able to retrain my character I often did not spend my points on upgrading my character because I wasn't sure what path to choose. This means that I would often be doing say a level 12 quest, but I hadn't upgraded my character's abilities/traits since level 8, etc. Even when I knew I could retrain I held off upgrading my character until I found myself with no quests left that I could do without considerably difficulty. Even when entering the Ark I had quite a few points left (luckily enough to upgrade my Awareness high enough that I could avoid the fight with the Horror!!!).

Up through the mid teen levels the two quests I had the most difficulty with were "Call of the Blood" and "A Web of Terror", the latter because I wanted to fight Decurion Sargos. These were really the first times that the combination of my DPS along with my Cleric healing were not able to keep up. I had to revisit these every level or two and try again until I was able to complete them in the high teens.

When I first entered the Ark, I was around level 22 and when I found the ship I didn't think I was ready to take it on. I had been able to handle most things up until this point (with patience and a bit of strategy), but from what I had heard about the Ark I just didn't know if I wanted to try it without beefing up some more. Nonetheless, I went in and slowly tackled the first few rooms by kiting and evading explosions (fwiw, I am very good at kiting single enemies away - a tactic I employed for much of the game). Once I discovered the medipaks and a Goggled Helmet I decided to farm just the first few rooms of the Ark. After an hour or so of doing this I had built up a very healthy supply of medipaks and batteries and soon found that I was able to venture further into the Ark and after a few more chests I was lucky enough to loot an EMP weapon. Because I had built up so many batteries and medipaks (100+) I was able to now use this EMP weapon almost 50% more effective as the Maul of Garrak I was using up to that point. I was able to also loot a conductive vest and all of a sudden I felt that the Ark was not so difficult (apart from sometimes not being able to avoid explosions - mostly due to unresponsive control).

My view of the Ark's difficulty however was due to the fact that I decided to just use batteries and medipaks indiscriminately. I had so many in reserve and seemed to pick one up every other kill that I just kept on injecting myself like a junkie. Even with all this use I finished the Ark with almost as many as I started with after my initial farming sessions. So, let me be clear: The Ark was not that difficult for me because I adjusted my playstyle for the first time to use potions constantly.

With the exception of the Horror (that I went back in order not to fight), I didn't find the Ark all that difficult. After that I tackled Sewer of Horrors, and while it had a learning curve, I really had no problems with that quest either (until the Elemental Plane of Fire). I got through the first sewer level mostly on my own dps and heals (did take a few tries to learn the ins and outs) and only resorted to a medipak on a couple of occasions where I got swarmed by a bad kiting or when I didn't want to blow my progress by being felled by a named enemy. The ability to rest/save on the second level made it also easy handiwork. The final level of hell was much more difficult as I didn't have quite high enough fire resistance as I would have liked (~80-100). I tried to follow the wiki by just running from stuff but found myself overwhelmed (even with a Fire summon). Because I wanted to grab the Tome in the chest I resorted simply to fighting the mobs and downing medipaks like crazy even though the mobs would self-heal I cleared them out so I had a clear path to run to the Greater Demon who I did attempt to fight on one run (successfully, again through medipak use). I only tried to fight the Lord of the Pit once and soon gave up on that idea and just ran to the teleporter.

After that, the only quests I really still had open were Bappasalar Cave (as I forgot about it) and to finish the rest of Forbidden Pit. I thought the cave was going to be a cakewalk and went in with no preparation so I was a bit ambushed by the named dragons etc in there. I decided to just inject at will again to get through it. Then I decided to go finish the Pit.

I headed into the Pit as a level 26 with all the top gear from the Ark, Ashen Wastes, and pretty much anything else that exists in game. I might not have been 100% suited to role, but I went in with over 100 resistances in DW and Spirit. I took Hirge with me because this dungeon was part of her quest line. Grissenda might have been a better choice for DPS because despite my other issues with the dungeon, Hirge wouldn't even just stand there and heal me appropriately when she was instructed not to fight. She probably should have been able to throw me at least 4-5 heals during the battle with her cooldown, but I was lucky if I got 2.

I had no problems getting through the Pit's standard enemies. It was made a bit easier by Hirge's heals, so I didn't need to expend my own mana as much. I ended the quest not even having used my last rest. It was the Dark Presences and the Void Lord that were the issues. I was surprised the first time I came upon a Dark Presence, so as soon as I saw a level 21 I clicked my Cleric buffs and a heal. I got decimated. As I did another 2-3 times when I ran *all* *the* *way* *back* through those hallways going into the fight as prepared as I could. I tried several strategies with Hirge and on all but one unfortunate encounter only had the Presence itself to fight (no other mobs). It was impossible to impose enough DPS on a Dark Presence while keeping up healing (both my own and the few paltry ones that Hirge was throwing despite her just standing there doing nothing else).

After 5 failed attempts I decided I needed to go back to my vault and grab my medikits (I was carrying no potions at all with me). Even with the medikits I failed at least 2 more times on at least one of the Dark Presences because I wasn't trying to spam a medikit every 6 seconds exactly. Only when I decided to use them again as soon as they became available in between my continued swings was I able to get through them. The Void Lord wasn't much tougher although I probably also needed to throw in my own cleric heals when they were off timer (thus decreasing my Duel dps each time).

Was I frustrated? A little - mostly because dying 6-8 times in a specific dungeon was only something that had happened a few times prior in the game and not many as long and monotonous as the Forbidden Pit. Was it fun? No - not really at all. At least in the Ark the constant use of potions was to heal in between fights from enemies who were dropping them. That kind of made it abundantly clear that you probably need to be using them to get through.

I played through at least 20 levels of this game almost exclusively using the powers innate to my built, and then the last 5-10% of end game content becomes almost impossible unless you want to just chug potions - especially on the named bosses.

Another example is the witches in the Undergrove. I feel that compared to the Ark loot, what you get from these bosses (and most of the others I have issue with) is considered lower level stuff and yet I still needed to try multiple times to kite each witch out alone into the doorway and use EMP weapons and medikits (along with my own buffs and heals) to be successful. I'm not sure how a non healer could be successful here without Ark level equipment even if they are putting out 25-45% more dps then I was.

So, despite the fact that I really enjoyed my time playing this game, I enjoyed it much less once it became what I describe above. I'm sure there are other experiences and ways it could have gone, but I think anyone who plays through this on Normal or harder can be considered a dedicated player. I mean it is like a 100 hour investment to get through this. Not everyone is going to either play through multiple times with multiple strategies or want to read the Wiki in entirety before developing their path through the game.

I really hope there is more content put out, heck I'll even pay the money for another game with the same type of gameplay (sadly, I don't know if Archaelund is going to be up my alley), but I hope there is a bit more thought put into having a more consistent leveling experience up through endgame and any additional high level content. I don't want to feel like I can get through it only by being a consumables whore or having to min/max on every little thing.

The thoughts above are just my own as a fan of the game wanting to give some constructive feedback as to what I enjoyed and didn't. Clearly I know my experience is not the only one and I also doubt that my feedback will elicit changes in the game (especially when I am late to coming to know EK). If however we are lucky enough for a large expansion or a sequel maybe some of my viewpoint can be considered.

Thanks for reading.

Follow-up: At this point I'm lvl 25 and have completed everything in game. I have not been able to kill Kalagru or Lord of the Pit (ran by him). I also opted not to fight the Dimensional Parasite for the end game (I was about level 22/23 at the time). I'm sure by re-speccing and following some of the very specific advice on the forums I can beat the remaining bosses, but it isn't really worth it for the time involved and the rewards - especially considering there is no where else to go after beating these excessively inflated enemies. Also, it wouldn't be fun :/
 

bengalih

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I'm not sure exactly what the point of your post is other than juvenile boasting?
And while I'm not about to watch 30 minutes worth of videos. My assumption from their titles and a quick skim of your first video is you are attempting to show how you are able to beat high level game content with low level characters?

Congratulations. You're leet.

We don't all want to spend the majority of our lives (or at least our free time) playing games and/or replaying the same game multiple times through hundreds of variations until we have mastered it.

This isn't about the fact that the game *can* be beaten, even with low level characters by exploiting whatever tricks and tactics you have found that allow you to do so. My post is about how anyone, even an average, casual player like myself (and I use casual lightly here since I believe devoting 100 hours to a game just to get through the main content the first time is anything but casual - at least for the time frame committed) can play through a game that on the surface seems well-balanced and beatable through standard play up until a certain point where you are left with no choice but to adapt your play outside what has been expected for the entire game.

If from the beginning the game required me to play by exploiting immortal cleric and chugging mana pots while letting my companions take all the aggro (and thus make them the main character of the story) , and kiting every fight with utmost precision, chugging speed and invis pots, etc then perhaps I would have no argument as I would have known what I was getting into within the first few hours of playing and I could have made up my mind not to engage. But that isn't how the game progresses through the majority of it.

You seem to have a very exacting play style which, while clearly effective, IMHO doesn't look like much fun to play through 75+ hours of content. With your playstyle you may have not had to adapt when hitting higher level content because you have already been playing in a micro-managed min/max exploit style. I'd wager that the majority of players are not looking for the experience you are documenting.

Again, that's just my opinion. I can only assume from your dedication to the game you have made your voice heard on the forums many times. I am just adding my perspective.
 

Atomos

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These videos aren't mine ;), I'm simply trying to show you, what can be done with options you're not using. Potions and scrolls are perfectly fine fantasy items, if you're scoffing at those, you might have a hard time fighting those who don't, or enemies who might require using those. You're going to end up with vaults full of wonderful consumables, that could have saved you in difficult situations. If you're determined to role play an incautious, unprepared hoarder, then difficulties by the end of the game are to be expected, am I wrong? ;)
 

bengalih

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Again, my point being you can play just fine using multiple styles (and should be able to) until a lot of the end game content. This makes the end game content frustrating and not anywhere near as enjoyable.

One thing that I thought was very clever game design was having to fight all those zealots in Ashen cape. They introduced you to exploding enemies as a game mechanic right before you made it to the Ark, which pretty much requires you to learn to get out of dodge when your final blow lands. This adaptation to how you played the majority of the game was then required - but only for a single (albeit long) quest.

In the same vein, the Ark required you (or at least me) to use healing at a much faster rate. I assume this was known in development and thus why the enemies drop medipaks like candy. This now introduces a play style that requires mass use of consumables to continue playing higher level content. At that point, the game ceases to be as fun for me when it becomes swing/swing/potion ad nasueum.

I'm not saying consumables should never be used, while I didn't like the idea of having to turn invisible to avoid the vampires until I cleansed the fountains, I succumbed to it as I couldn't find another working strategy without being mobbed. But this was an isolated case.

If end game requires a drastically different play style (i.e. using all sorts of consumables or specific tactics, etc), and the rest of the game does not, then I think that proves my point. Unbalanced does not mean unbeatable, it means unbalanced.

If my options to beat high level quests are to run around like a chicken on speed while guzzling potions and clicking consumables endlessly waiting to come off timer so that it takes me 5-10+ minutes to beat an enemy then yes - I think forcing that type of play style on people is wrong, especially when (to beat a dead horse) it wasn't required at other level appropriate stuff.
 

Atomos

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You can decrease the difficulty anytime you feel the game isn't enjoyable anymore ;). No mentally stable adult is going to call you a casual for playing an offline game on easy mode
 

bengalih

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You are still missing the point. I've voiced my opinion and those who are responsible for the game design can take my user feedback and use it or dismiss it as they wish. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has experienced this unbalanced game play but clearly I am not about to read through 5 years of forums posts to verify that.

I see there is a forum area for "support" and one for "General." I am not asking for advice on how to beat an enemy or how to tune down difficulty at higher levels because the game requires a totally new method to play after investing 100 hours playing just fine using a specific style. I posted in the feedback forum specifically to give my feedback. I don't have to keep defending my opinion, since it is an opinion, and you have the right to disagree even if you don't seem to really understand my concern.

I posted with the knowledge that there was a small chance the developer would even look to it and a smaller chance he would heed anything I said. In my experience someone that put all the effort into creating a game like this is likely to be fairly unmovable by anyone's input, especially if it goes outside of a 5 year old community of players who have made a game a central tenant of their existence. But, I don't know this dev and I don't want to make any judgements. I felt that taking 20 minutes to provide my honest feedback was the least I could do after he made such an enjoyable game that, for the most part, was a pleasure to play.
 

Geezer

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I am a hoarder
So, with this being a role-playing game; why not choose to play again as a character who isn't one?

Just a thought. Consider it an in-built hidden challenge for you to master the decision to streamline your inventory to the most efficient point you can still have fun with.

I'm doing the same myself right now. I read somewhere that gems are useful for the endgame, so I haven't sold a single one!
You've made it to the endgame, you know what you didn't need (presumably), so test your theories and play again.
Just my take on it, anyway.
 

Alan_SP

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I see there is a forum area for "support" and one for "General."
The Support forum is mainly for bugs in game, not how to play.

And, I like your post, it obviously means you like the game a lot. They just tried to show you there are other ways to play. Believe me, I wonder how some people manage to do things they do with EK. I usually just ... fail and get killed too easily.

Developer is working on a new game, but it won't be similar engine: Archaelund (now updated with screenshots and video!)

Maybe later, after Archaelund, developer will revisit this engine.

Most important thing is that so many people play EK differently. And sadly for me, almost everyone else is better at it than me. :rolleyes:
 

VDX_360

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@bengalih , First congrats on beating the game,

Now lets get down to the discussion.

I read your lengthy post. It boils down to a very concise point:

You choose to not use consumables, than complain the game is too hard without using potions.

That's just silly :cool:

I encourage new players to avoid overly consuming potions. Such overuse can be a symptom of a bad build or questionable playing style. But to have a flat out resistance to using any items? That makes no sense.

The game is balanced for player resources. That includes skills, traits, companions, equipment, and yes, potions and scrolls.

What I might suggest is to take a short break from the game, than come back and play on Hard with a Cleric. You seem to like Clerics (my favorite Class, too) and the Hard might make it more interesting.

With your understanding of the game, you might have your character build decisions easier to make.

As for your non-item-preference, I propose a compromise:

Only use a few items in a dungeon run. A back-up potion in case of emergencies, some buff potions against a boss (I'm looking at you Fire Breathing Dragons). That might ease past your compulsion to hoard items while sill allowing you to build up a stockpile.

As for end game areas, my least favorite is the Pit. It feels like it gets tedious around lap 3. I would vote for a slightly shorter design if the game was still under development.
 

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