DPS is not everything.

Borondil

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I wanted to do this post quite some time ago but since I forgot about this forum I didn't know where to do it. I hope this helps you a bit:

In order to show you what I mean I'll simply start off with an example:
A rogue uses the "Chesters Bow", attacking 1.8 times a second and deals 30 damage with each hit due to his traits and abilities. The DPS here (leaving out crit chance) is: 1.8 x 30 = 54
A warrior wields the "Andamantite Greatsword" attacking 0.9 times a second dealing 35-45 damage (40 for simplification even though this is not entirely correct) due to his traits and abilities. His DPS ends up being: 0.9 x 40 = 36 (which is just two thirds of the rogues DPS)

Now we send both of them to fight the "Lord of the Pit" with 34 armor points in Icemist Sewers for ten seconds:
The rogue attacks 1.8 times a second but since his attack damage is less than the demons armor he only attacks for a single damage point. With 18 attacks in 10 seconds he ends up dealing a total of 18 damage
The warrior only attacks only 0.9 times a second so a total of 9 times in 10 seconds. His damage is reduced to 40 - 34 = 6 due to the demons armor. With 9 attacks he ends up dealing a total of 9 x 6 = 54 damage in ten seconds.

So you see that the warrior in theory having only two third of the rogues DPS actually ends up dealing three times the damage the rogue does.
It is extremely important to reach the point where you're avarage attack surpasses your enemies avarage armor. The higher you go above that, the easier the battle will be.
So maybe next time instead of Flurry take Heavyhand or Fury. And instead of Rapid Fire... well don't take bows at all, they're terrible

Hope this helps, I wish you all a nice day
 

stonedwolf

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DPS is an average, yes. Resistances, both armour and elemental, change that.

Note that Jester's Bow (clue is in the name) is a joke. Speed 18, DPS 1.8 whereas Wymslayer is speed 15 DPS 7.8 plus Vicious 2. But for a real bow, Ion Recurve, Speed 15, DPS 16.8

Don't forget the Adamantite Greatsword has BANISHING 5 which adds 10 damage per hit to LOTP.

But weapons do not exist in a vacuum. Rogue archers are superior to Warrior archers because of Skills. At Level 21 you're adding seven damage per arrow. That adds up on a fast weapon. There is also a 7% stun chance, per arrow. And with Rapid Fire up to 30% of the time you're shooting double-speed. So that 1.5 arrows per second is now 3 arrows per second, along with stun chance.

And yes warriors get 2H Expert so they get stun & more damage too. But they're not running around and vanishing like ninjas and basically it's a different play style. And 2H warriors are, IMO, by far the easiest to play. But Rogue Archers have smashed this game on Hard and Ironman with a bit of thought.

But yeah, at high level, without skills, Jester's Bow is something of a clown weapon.


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VDX_360

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DPS is DPS.

That's just math.

DPS is NOT Actual Damage.

DPS is NOT Damage Per Hit

Damage Per Second (DPS) is an universally used term to describe raw damage output. It's understood to be greater than Actual Damage. It's just not feasible to have an easy to use system that would take into consideration all possible defenses and resistances.

Warriors can use bows, but they're not designed to use bows a primary weapon. There are situations where a decent bow can be helpful, from triggering aggro to an enemy inside a room, to hitting someone in a gas cloud.
 

Borondil

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I'm sorry if the example is incorrect / not possible to apply. I simply took jesters bow and andamantite longsword as an example because it's one of the very few examples where the speed of one weapon is double the speed of the other one. I left out the banishing since it would somehow twist things a little bit. Of course a banishing 5 weapon is stronger against a demon than a normal one.
Oh and I'm not trying to prove that just jesters bow is bad. I think that most bows including wyrmslayer and ion recurve suffer from the same problems. From my experience they really struggle to surpass that armor border of most enemies (on higher levels they surely do but most people don't want to grind levels just to use a weapon).

Regarding the title; yeah you're absolutely right, of course DPS is DPS. I wanted to get a somewhat funny / catchy title🙈 I apologize if that made you expect something groundbreaking and not a simple thought like this.

I hope this helps and doesn't spread confusion since I feel like a lot of newbies (including myself when I first played the game) fall for the trap where they see that their DPS with a light weapon is the same or even a bit higher than with a 2H weapon and then choose the light weapon because of the armor benefit. (Even 2H ultimately has its strengths as well)
Post automatically merged:    

Mmmmh is it possible to change the title of the thread? If it really bothers you I could do so👍
 

VDX_360

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Mod Note: Per the above request, changed the thread tittle, and removed the Guide pre-fix.
 

stonedwolf

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Oh and I'm not trying to prove that just jesters bow is bad. I think that most bows including wyrmslayer and ion recurve suffer from the same problems. From my experience they really struggle to surpass that armor border of most enemies (on higher levels they surely do but most people don't want to grind levels just to use a weapon).

I think Rogues are the hardest class to play because they are squish and tricksy. Warriors, massive defence and damage. Clerics can Heal and Intervene. Mages, once they get going, are minor deities in terms of power.

Perhaps Archer is one of the more difficult 'basic' classes to play. People have smashed Ironman with them, there are guides here for them.

And I don't want every class to be easy to play and as-easy as every class. If Rogue Archer is more of challenge than 2H Warrior... OK.

There are also a range of bows under Recurve that are slower, less DPS, but still strong: Ghost Eye (Death, Vicious), Permafrost (Cold, Stun), Malan (Spirit, Holy, Banish), Mist (Electric).

There is also... the Composite Bow.

The Composite Bow, dealing only PHYSICAL damage, might be one to use against some armoured bosses or mini-bosses (and Legionnaires, etc.) because PHYSICAL is the thing that overwhelms armour. (Adamantite is also physical). But also if your boss is vulnerable to attributes (e.g. Malan vs demons, Permafrost vs Firebreathers) then that might be a better choice.
 

Kakost

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Actually, the minimum damage isnt 1, it's 20% of the minimum damage of the weapon. My lvl 8 Rogue does a minimum 2 damage per hit with Jesters Bow, because with all the bonuses from Agi, Awa, Archery Skill and lvls, it has a 12-12 damage, thus the minimum damage per hit is 2.

Rogue Archers get benefited from Awa, which is perhaps the only pro they have, since Awa is so useful for avoiding traps, and I regard it as a better trait to have than Str.

The other advantage is triggering stun, which is why Jesters Bow aint all that terrible of a weapon.

But yes, DPS aint the sole factor to be considered when choosing a weapon. Against enemies with huge defenses, it's far better to have a slow weapon that can deal massive damage in a single hit and will thus overcome big armor, but against light armored enemies the reverse is true.

This game is vastly different from any other RPGs I ever played, you dont just go in guns blazing shooting everything that moves, you actually have to carefully plan your every step. I learned that the hard way, but I learned fast, and now I have chests for "death resistance", "fire resistance" and so on, and each new expedition I stop on town, plan ahead and completely change gears for what I have to face. Even when just travelling around, I keep at least 2 sets of weapons for what comes in the way. So there are many, many complexities to take into consideration beyond just "what gives me the highest DPS". It's all situational, dependant on resistances, armor, hp. Which is why I see that no one can come up with a definitive "X is the best item for portion A".
 

VDX_360

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Keep in mind that there are a few oddities in how damage is actually calculated. Nothing shocking but sometimes weirdness happens at extreme low damage range (Shield Expert elemental bug, for example).

There's been some changes to the game over the years so it's possible the Wiki might have errors, too.
 

stonedwolf

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Which is why I see that no one can come up with a definitive "X is the best item for portion A".

Agreed, individually challenging areas will depending on build, skills, traits, and playstyle. For the same area one player might find the swarms hard but the boss easier, some might plough through the swarms but struggle with the boss. Do you want a generic do-all weapon (Physical, Lightning and Spirt can be good for this) or do you want to Mix/Max with numerous weapons but lose Loot slots? Perhaps traps will be your bane, perhaps not.

I think the important thing is the game can be beaten, with care, with numerous builds, different weapons, different styles, all classes, on the hardest difficulties. I mean for a large part of it the difference between ultra mix/max and good min/max is how any Extra Recoveries you have at the end of a segment, or if you drank X vs X+1 number of potions.
 

VDX_360

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The standard I use to determine if a build is viable is if a typical new player can complete the main story line in a reasonable manner.

There's an insane number distinct builds that meet that standard, representing a wide range of styles for each class.

It's one of the reason I dislike "best" discussions because it's too narrow of a topic, and often has more to do with subjective preferences than objective math.

Not all builds will do equally in all parts of the game. Nor should they.

DPS not the whole story, neither is class, build, or playing style.
 

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