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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:27 pm 
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I noticed that part of your plan for later updates was to add a crafting system, I would discourage this.

1. Enemies and dungeons already drop tons of items
The way the game plays encourages you to go in and out of dungeons many times before your done with them, this gives you ample opportunity to gain new armor and weapon drops.
If Crafting is definitely going to be in the game I would encourage you to to either make the weapons you can make yourself a good step more powerful than anything you could find as a drop, and make the material drop rare. Or make armor and weapon drops very rare, so that finding materials is meaningful, instead of just one more thing to go sell or store.


2. Micromanagement of resources might periodically kill the game flow
A huge part of the appeal of this game is that it is easy to understand and play, despite being in an open world format. I think the principal behind crafting could be used in a good way somewhere, like using ingredients to make potions, but even that concept is easy to turn into a mess of unnecessary micromanagement.
Keep the game simple, only add features that enhance the other aspects of your game design. Introducing the idea that random bits of junk might be useful to you at some point instantly makes you want to keep all of them, and instantly turns into annoying inventory shuffling whenever you want to craft.
In essence i would like to see crafting as something you as a player want to do naturally, that fits into the "sleep -> excursion ->repeat" formula you have already, not as simply a a tacked on way to make items, that slows the game down for a marginal reward.

I really like this game and want to see it succeed, I hope this topic can contribute to that.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:10 pm 
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Hello! thanks for your feedback, I'll jump at the chance to share my plans regarding crafting, so I can get even more feedback.

Crafting place in the game

First of all, crafting will be absolutely optional, not required to finish the game. Think of it in terms of Morrowind crafting; you can ignore it and be alright, or, if you love to make your own items, you can do it, and get an edge. It will not be a requisite to have a strong character that can face the biggest challenges in the game.

For instance, you can buy potions, which are expensive, or you can brew them yourself, getting slightly better potions for a cheaper price. A rogue skilled in brewing can use poisons often, because it's affordable, while one that has to rely on purchasing them, might only use them sporadically.

As for equipment, crafted items will often be better than drops, but they will not always replace them. I'll make sure dropped/purchased items are still useful as alternatives, and even required as components for crafting a better item. For instance it can be a nice way to gain access to specialized resist/damage items. Examples could be, enchanting blue steel weapons to add elemental damage (most elemental damage weapons now are based on iron weapon stats), or similarly, enchant plate or chain with additional resists.

A specialized crafter will be able to, in the end game, craft exceptional items that can very well mean a big difference. But that will likely only be attainable if you specialize (traits, skill points) and combining several crafts.

How it will work

The system is currently being designed, but there's some concepts I can already share.

There will be several separate crafts, and in each, a character will have a different bonus. Your bonus will come from your traits, some skills, and also, the number of recipes you have already mastered (i.e., done succesfully once). In order to learn a recipe, you will need to obtain the "recipe" item and use it, to permanently add it to your recipe list.

The system will encourage you to try to make each item once (or maybe item type, i.e, "iron weapon"), to improve as a crafter. But you'll gain no benefit from crafting 700 times the same dagger or helm.

When will it be available?

I will add brewing first, probably in a few weeks. After it's been tested and adjusted, I'll add scroll scribing, as it's required for the mage class. After that, will come the armor and weapon crafting.

What materials will be needed?

I think you can safely sell the current loot. You may need a few small gems maybe, a few perfect pelts for armor, but like I said, you will NOT be required to craft 50 times the same item. Blue steel weapons will be enchantable, as will be plate and normal chain.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:03 pm 
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If EK wasn't open world, I'd say crafting wouldn't necessarily be needed, but it is open world, so I think crafting will add a new dimension. The aim here, I believe, is to provide a much richer experience than a simple hack and slash game.

Most modern RPGs have some type of crafting mechanism in place. Crafting isn't needed, but as an alternative to nothing but fighting, it's a good, non-mandatory distraction. It also allows better character customization - an alternative and addition to pure skill and trait combinations.

In short, yes, I think crafting is a good idea.

Now, let's consider some of the ramifications!

Crafting has to be diverse enough so that characters can specialize, otherwise it just becomes a redundant exercise. To become diverse, there has to be some sort of accountability - a point system, perhaps?

If a point system is used, it cannot detract from the current point system or no one will spend points for crafting. There also has to be restrictions put into place. A Cleric, for example, should not be using poison! There are many ways all this can be designed, but that, I think, will be for David to figure out.

Another, more pressing problem, would be inventory space. For this, I recommend a DDO bag-type system, including auto-collect.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:08 pm 
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It sounds like you have a pretty good idea on how to keep crafting subtle enough that you won't be constantly bombarded with useless items that only remind the player of what they're not doing. I like the idea of crafting items one time to master them, and then letting the player move on to better crafts.

Here's a thought on how to acquire materials, you have a lot of caves that feel like mines already, you could make it so that the majority of metals used for weapons and armor are found only in chests or mine-carts. Since it seems like crafting will be something done rather infrequently (only when you get a new recipe, or raise your skill level to the next set), this might provide a way to cut back the amount of materials the player gets access to so they don't clutter the inventory.

The optional skill system is interesting, Having an entirely separate set of skills could work, but the benefits of crafting would need to make up for the lack of points in other skills.
An idea to bounce off you, what if your maximum level of crafting skill was a function of the points you had placed in other skills/traits? Are their some skills/traits that lend themselves to giving the player new crafts? This would take the crafting style of game-play from being its own build, and turn it into a natural extension of certain types of builds. Such as Agility allowing Rouges to improve the Damage of any weapon or tack on a few more HP to pieces of armor.

As for richness in game design, the game already has it, companions, dialog trees, faction influence, being rich is not one of this games problems. I don't see anything keeping this game from being a rich and simple hack and slash game.
Now that I've seen some of DavidBVal's plan I won't discourage the addition of crafting, but rather encourage a very careful implementation. The game experience is already varied and enjoyable with hardly any fluff, don't mess that up just to give the players one more option.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:07 am 
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I think you all will love it when it's done. I understood long ago, that an open-world game must be able to be played in many different ways! :)

Traits will play a major part in crafting, yes, especially intelligence. Skills, a little, but only if you decide to specialize as a crafter, as a mid/late game option. The faction you choose to join, will play a big role, because factions grant access to recipes, which will raise your craft bonus. there'll be alternative ways to find recipes, but joining a guild will be the easiest one.

Most factions will be mutually exclusive, so that alone guarantees that you won't have to do every crafting recipe with every character you play.

Every time I post stuff like this, I realize how much work remains to be done still :P

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:25 am 
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DavidBVal wrote:
I think you all will love it when it's done. I understood long ago, that an open-world game must be able to be played in many different ways! :)

Traits will play a major part in crafting, yes, especially intelligence. Skills, a little, but only if you decide to specialize as a crafter, as a mid/late game option. The faction you choose to join, will play a big role, because factions grant access to recipes, which will raise your craft bonus. there'll be alternative ways to find recipes, but joining a guild will be the easiest one.

Most factions will be mutually exclusive, so that alone guarantees that you won't have to do every crafting recipe with every character you play.

Every time I post stuff like this, I realize how much work remains to be done still :P
Sounds good!

I think one thing that everyone should know is that David's favorite game is Morrowind. It is my belief EK is his mobile realization of that RPG. There is a lot more coming down the pipeline, and I can't wait to play it!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:45 am 
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morrowind was really fun and had a nice challenge (more so than oblivion and skyrim) and the mark and recall spells certainly was nice. But the fact the most gold merchants held was 5k when you had an item worth 20k+ was annoying. And the infinite stat cheats could be fun to play with or the scrolls of icarian flight (laughs when you splatter from using those) alot of things were lost from morrowind to oblivion (like pillows :( )

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:56 am 
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Intelligence for crafting? So i need to skill my warrior to intelligence?
Or do u mean we need intelligence for potions and other straits for armors and weapons?
I dont want skill my warrior with intelligence^^

And Morrowind is the best game ever. It would be great if bethesda make a new version of morrowind. I love this game :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:07 am 
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Hmmm I don't have a *single* favorite game, it is impossible for me to pick just one. It is probably my favorite "post 2000" RPG, and probably has the best open world design, for me. There's many things inspired by Morrowind in EK, but also a lot of influence from many other classics (Black Isle games, for instance).

About traits: don't worry about picking INT or anything now, only crafting specialists will really need to configure their character build specifically. And there will be ways to reset traits in the game. For now, just ignore crafting and hack at things, don't worry :)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:46 pm 
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I see fallout everywhere in EK. It is post-apocalyptic in a way.

Crafting sounds great but whenever I read about different character builds etc, I think: we need more character slots.


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