A numerical defense of shield warriors

Some enemies have knock back skill, I understand that this is a challenge, I love it

However, my hero has a mighty aoe skill but knock back.....this ruins everything, this is anti-human


1H (not a light) + shield - Good dps and best defense
2H - Better dps (yet still not as good as a rogue) and good defense

1H light + shield - I have no idea why should I play this...


Please add 50 gold bandage...

My first build was a 2H warrior. Eventually I built up enough to get Flurry, and then I realized that putting points into Agility more than strength was too good to pass up; you get bonuses per point on traps, armor, ranged weapons, and light weapons, you can get Flurry earlier, etc. I would say 3 points in Strength is all one needs if you're going with an Agility-based Warrior so you can get Massive Criticals. You can use belts and whatnot to pass other trait checks on strength. It's just that it costs so many points to be able to level up a trait, and I think even if you're going 2H route you're going to want Flurry ASAP. That's 6 Agility points, minimum. And there are plenty of good light weapons in the game, so it's tough for me to justify having a little more damage per hit with a 2h weapon augmented with high strength.

123Klutz":p7lu0kte said:

1H light + shield - I have no idea why should I play this...

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For end-game stuff, a Light Weapon + Shield is like the underperforming bastard child of a rogue and a warrior (hey, that's Adaon!). However, in the very early game, you can sneak out a little more DPS and a little more defense when you're the weakest. Given almost all 1-H builds will toss some points over to AGL anyways, tossing those points into AGL at first isn't a bad plan. You get the extra defense from the AGL when decent armour is hard to find, and you get the slightly better dps from the light weapon when enemies have really low armour.

Depending on your long-term plan, I wouldn't recommend putting more than 2 trait points into AGL for those that are using Light weapons as a short term build. A few towns, or decent drops, into the game and you can switch over to 1-H weapons and start pumping trait points into STR.

The icicle is a nice light weapon that can be acquired in the early game....

My first runthrough was a Warrior. Pretty early on after checking through the skills, I realised Flurry is where key to high DPS. Unfortunately for a 2H Warrior, that is 6 Agility invested pretty early on, as well as needing high Strength and Endurance. So Agility focused 2 H Warrior to get Flurry ASAP will struggle early on. After careful consideration, it was clear starting off with Sword and Shield (1 Handed) was clearly superior due to high Armor at start, and anyway enemies do not have high Armor early on so you do not need to have that extra damage per hit to penetrate the Armor, but rather faster hits for higher DPS.
Only later on (probably from level 18 onward), does a 2 Handed Warrior with Flurry shine. Monsters and Bosses now have higher Armor, and a Light Weapon 1 Handed Warrior will struggle more than the pure damage per hit of a 2 Handed Warrior. I agree with the OP as most new players with 2 Handed Warrior will not pick Flurry, rather go the Strength/Endurance route, and will fall behind the 1 Handed Warrior with Flurry in damage dealt, with less Armor as well (but with higher Health though).
By end game, 2 Handed Warrior with Flurry IMO is the best. He has high Damage per hit, high DPS, good Armor, good Health, and with Hirge as follower is pretty much awesome to behold.

Jibaholic":1ucgxcn9 said:

Lesson 1: Whirlwind and Charge Are Overrated*

Whirlwind does 120% of normal damage (not elemental damage, check the combat log). With a strength of 7 and a Greataxe of the Falling Stars, a non-critical hit will do 33.4 normal damage per hit (not DPS). Multiply that by 2.2 and add the 5 elemental and you have 76.5 per hit. The other non-Whirlwind hits will do 38.4 damage per hit.

However, Whirlwind has a cool down time of 9 seconds. So about every 8th hit will be a Whirlwind. So take the average and you get 43.1. Maxing out Whirlwind gets you about 5 damage per hit. In DPS you're getting a bit less than 5 per second. For 9 skill points. Not a good deal. Similar reasoning applies to Charge*

What this means is that pretty much all Warriors should go the Bloodlust, Heavy Hand and Duel route. And those all add a fixed amount of damage per attack, which swings the balance towards shield warriors.

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Very good post, and I agree that the way people looked at 2h warriors as hands-down superior always sounded like a simplification to me.

However, I'd like to point out that Whirlwind and Charge are "burst" damage skills. It's true that numerically speaking, rank 3 or 4 of these skills seem to be a bad deal; and it is indeed not great against bosses compared to skills like Duel. But burst damage can kill an enemy before it can barely hit you. If a normal hit + ww + charge can kill an enemy in 3 seconds, it means you can likely clear up that area sustaining very little damage, while through Duel it may not be the case. Offense is the best defense, as they say.

People get distracted by the occasional massive hit to notice the overall damage output. Outside of damage, Charge, in my opinion, is useful because it allows breaking through a crowd, dashing over a trap, and that small burst can allow running aware from enemies. It's usefulness as a way to close the gap is a bit limited, but it can make for a nice initial or finishing blow.

Charge + Whirlwind can make for a heavy damage attack that kills, or severely injures an enemy. In that regards, it doesn't matter too much what the next few attacks will be because there's no one left to hit. Of course, by the end game, it's less likely even the toughest 2-H warrior is overpowering the enemies so that the long game attack really matters.

IF the game is truly balanced, than there's no clear winner in the 2-H and 1-H debate. That's what balance means. Keep in mind that different playing styles get more enjoyment out of each build so sometimes it's not about what build gives your the mathematical edge, but what build is just more subjectively fun to play (Mage with STR 12 for the win!)

DavidBVal":3rav282d said:

However, I'd like to point out that Whirlwind and Charge are "burst" damage skills. It's true that numerically speaking, rank 3 or 4 of these skills seem to be a bad deal; and it is indeed not great against bosses compared to skills like Duel. But burst damage can kill an enemy before it can barely hit you. If a normal hit + ww + charge can kill an enemy in 3 seconds, it means you can likely clear up that area sustaining very little damage, while through Duel it may not be the case. Offense is the best defense, as they say.

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In fact whirlwind only make me slower, I doubt why anyone would like to use a knock back skill if he had ever played Diablo II....imagine this:

1. Adaon and I surround an enemy, he is flanked by Adaon, who has 100% flanking damage and 25% stun, ...then I whirlwind to knock him back

2. I pulled one enemy from a large group, which I can't sustain, then I whirlwind to knock him back, Griss run after him and enrages the whole group.

3. The enemy is about to die by my next attack, then Griss whirlwinds to "save" him, then another bad guy heals him.

... and so forth

these happen every now and then,

VDX_360":1vfciez7 said:

I wouldn't recommend putting more than 2 trait points into AGL for those that are using Light weapons as a short term build. A few towns, or decent drops, into the game and you can switch over to 1-H weapons and start pumping trait points into STR.

The icicle is a nice light weapon that can be acquired in the early game....

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imo AGI 6 is a must since flurry is just damn good, flurry + duel = legal cheat
icicle is a nice one, I like it too

AGL 6 to get Flurry is a solid idea, my comment about AGL 2 was in the context of builds using Light weapons as a short term step towards using 1-H weapons. Builds going for Flurry can benefit from prioritizing AGL over STR until Flurry is gotten.

123Klutz":y2lfor3w said:

In fact whirlwind only make me slower, I doubt why anyone would like to use a knock back skill if he had ever played Diablo II....imagine this:

1. Adaon and I surround an enemy, he is flanked by Adaon, who has 100% flanking damage and 25% stun, ...then I whirlwind to knock him back

2. I pulled one enemy from a large group, which I can't sustain, then I whirlwind to knock him back, Griss run after him and enrages the whole group.

3. The enemy is about to die by my next attack, then Griss whirlwinds to "save" him, then another bad guy heals him.

... and so forth

these happen every now and then,

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Not to mention that if Gris Whirlwinds someone as I've already started building up my Duel bonuses, I have to start over. Same goes for Bash and Adaon's Kick. When I'm playing Rogue and prep my Stab but then Gris Whirlwinds just as I'm about to strike, Stab gets wasted. I'd rather not have skills that use Knockback at all, to be honest.